
In 1952, when McCarthyism was at its height, Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas labeled the investigative techniques of the junior senator from Wisconsin "guilt by association" (Adler v. Board of Education). Well, Hillary and McCain have fine-tuned the tactic for 2008 and the Clinton machine, as well as its candidate, are wallowing in the dirt.
This is clearly despicable. Does anyone disagree? Do we need practitioners of a new McCarthyism in the presidency?
Having been a combat infantry, disabled Vietnam vet, and also, one of the first VVets to come out, in writing, publicly, delcaring we'd lose the Vietnam War in 1967, and then later, being part of the antiwar movement, up to and including the SDS (but not Weather Underground), I think when people began killing other people, and planting bombs, etc., then the "revolution" clearly crossed a different line. I don't know all the deeds of Bill Ayers or Bernadine Dorn. I recall reading somewhere that the univesity Ayers teaches asked him or told him they didn't want him on certain boards because of remarks he made.
When September 11 happened, I made comments to former government co workers that we had to accept responsibility for the things we've done to Arabs and Muslims, and our iron clad, without question support for Israel. Ironically, Bush, Sr., actually cut off economic aid to Israel until they ceased building settlements and outposts. His son hadn't the same moral fiber. Regardless of how we've treated Arabs or Muslims, though, I said nothing justified September 11. I was called a "resident Taliban" by a coworker. It was shocking, since we were both Democrats on a life long basis, and both had flirted with Socialism.
I've become a moderate Democrat in the face of the Ultra Liberal Elitist (ULE) Obama/DNC attempts to bully and smash Senator Clinton's run for the White House. As often happens, the "vetting" process HAS caught up with Obama. So far, I've not heard what exactly he accomplishd when he traveled in Pakistan. He must have had some real interest in Islam to make that journey. Obamistas had best pray that he did not meet anyone in Pakistan who was or is now, a risk, in terms of links to radical Islamists.
That would be the final nail in his coffin, if that were the case.
Obama's just an Ultra Liberal ... he's no Marxist, Leninist, Maoist, etc. He's associated with another man who was/is a socialist, but that guy is low level. Nonetheless, neither John McCain nor anyone else will now be able to stop the slide Obama's on towards defeat. He's off his game, and unless he blisters his pastor in the next week, he may lose North Carolina and Indiana. I come from Indiana, and I can say that Rev. Wright's performance will cause many "undecideds", to move away from Obama there.
Senator Clinton just had the endorsement of a two term governor in NC. If John Edwards were to endorse her, I suspect Obama will lose that state next week. He will not fare well in Kentucky, West Virginia, possibly Montana and North Dakota. He might be able to pull off Oregon. I doubt Puerto Rico and Guam. So, all of these separate issue distractions could cause his defeat.
IF he wants to retain the hope of becoming a Vice President to Clnton, he had BEST NUKE Rev. Wright; detail his associations with Ayers, and, declare any other problems he hasn't told us about. Why? Because now every media person will be digging deeper. Sermons over 20 years will be looked at, and so will Obama's presence in the church for those sermons.
Obama, I believe, has peaked.
His supporters will "cling" to him because so many have excoriated Clinton so bad they couldn't do anything BUT stay with him. I believe she now has a better chance for the nomination. If he wants to serve on her ticket, he'll have to totally disassociate himself with these people. The fact is, this isn't McCarthyism.
McCarthy was NOT lying that there were a number of Communists in the Federal Government. He wasn't lying because there is now ample evidence, gleaned from years of deciphering Russian KGB and GRU messages, by the NSA, that those people WERE in the government and DID pass on vital information to the Russians. If one reads the several books on the Venona Project, you will see just how infiltrated the Communist Party (CPUSA), was. The two books I've read correctly list several hundred, including some very high up in the government. Because Venona transcripts were only released in 1990. however, the McCarthy charges looked like a witchhunt. There is no evidence anyone is doing that now.
The greatest danger Obama faces is: Rev. Wright, who is an egomaniac, who might lash back at him, if repudiated totally, and, whether he made any contacts with people in Pakistan who have since become radical Islamists, and have shown up on American intelligence. For the same deep penetration secrecy rules, we may not know that ... but if there WERE a few folks he met while in Pakistan, who are openly and overtly anti-American and radical in their Islamic practices, Obama could be in dramatic trouble.
HE may not even know who they are, or if they exist. BUT, his days as a presidential front runner seem in serious jeopardy. He's got some serious problems here.
Hillary is a far better candidate, and, a far more accomplished campaigner. She's been right that Senator Obama hasn't been vetted in even a remotely close manner as she has. She's "known," and the growing list of "unknowns" about Obama will cut into his lead. I think if he loses in both states next Tuesday, we could see some Superdelegates shift to Clinton. This could be over quicker than some think.
And, since Obama and the world were told by Rev. Wright that he (Wright) will "come after Obama because this government grinds people down ..." he could get into an even crazier distraction with the Rev. The Rev. is totally enamored with himself. He IS, as I have said before, "an actor," on his altar, and he loves the limelight. He has tried to defend himself, but he came across even kookier. If there's more, it WILL now, come out. Obama had best hope Rev. Wright doesn't try and have the last word.
Once Wright is on that type of mission ... no, I will have the last word here ... Obama will never be able to disentangle himself before he loses some more primaries. I think he's peaked and will now begin to falter.
We feel good about our support for Clinton.
No, this ain't McCarthyism.
Not even close.
I agree with many of your facts, but all this shows is that you ENDORSE guilt by association as a legitimate mechanism for political candidates to BASH their opponents. You think it is OKAY that Hillary tars and feathers Obama with his associations with Ayers and Wright. Gosh. Isn't that MCCARTHYISM? Did you read the article by Stanley Fish?
For good measure on how Democrats like Hillary should behave in this contest, you might want to listen to the following:
Isn't that MCCARTHYISM?
Doesn't seem so, but it's a powerful word to throw around and will probably have some effect in deflecting scrutiny.
BTW, have you heard Ayers speak? How do you describe his politics?
Did you read the piece that leads off our give-and-take? Stanley Fish certainly makes a good case for this term, in addition to showing the Hillary has clearly tried to deceive (he much too graciously does not think her sniper story was a deliberate lie). I did listen to some "take-outs" of Ayers put together by an Obama basher. As I recall, there was nothing in them but a wish for a different kind of government--and that the "democratic surge" (Huntington's phrase) has been stronger and more successful. Currently we have a government in which the President AND the Vice-president think they are above the other two branches and, in that sense, above all responsibility to the legislative branch and to the courts. This is dangerous--the kind of thing that the founders of the U.S.A. were trying to protect future citizens from when they wrote the constitution.
Look. People need to move-on from McCarthyism accusations. Rather than throwing terms around, or accusing people of violating others' rights in their efforts to crush communism, let's consider issues.
These clips are handy. They're a little long, but it sounds like you want more raw context rather than pre-edited stuff:
There are a number of gems, such as statements that most activists have kept the faith in various ways (in education for example), but are still devoted to things such as overthrowing capitalism. Her comments on MLK are interesting; his statement that he considered the US to be the greatest purveyor of violence on the earth; that she believes this is the case today. Mentioning the topic of how those in the "belly of the beast" or "heart of the monster" should act.
I went to UC Berkeley, so I'm used seeing and hearing communist stuff, and know how prevalent it is. There's an underground and above ground aspect to it. Let's just say, if I were an extreme leftist, (only if I were an extreme leftist), wanting to rid the world of the scourge of capitalism, I'd be hangin' with these folks and have them help launch my political career. And perhaps my wife would organize events with them included, to help further the cause and pay them respects.
I'd have to be a complete idiot to just think these people were "respected educators" who "happened to live in my neighborhood". Or at least I'd have to think other people were completes idiots, if they would buy that load of bull from me.
Regarding the term "McCarthyism," let's set it aside for a couple of sentences. We are here because of the Clinton-Obama fight for the candidacy. We have a right to expect more from Clinton. When she said that Obama was not a Muslim "as far as I know" ... maybe that's true (i.e., Bill Clinton is not a Catholic as far as I know either)... but it is certainly slimy politics. I don't think there's much she won't resort to. As for "obliterating Iran," which contingency was that meant to please?
I actually see the "stealth Muslim" thing as being the thing that does smack of McCarthyism, because it involves a supposition that Obama is an infiltrator, covering his extremist Muslim ties and beliefs, and will then act in accord, becoming a weapon from inside. The presumption is that we've got to sniff him out indirectly since he's hiding. It involves the nudge-nudge wink-wink signals, like the one that Clinton may have been making. Regardless, especially after reading snopes.com, which cleverly sites Obama's own books to debunk the myths against him, it is quite obvious to me that Obama is not a stealth Muslim terrorist... ...as far as I know. ;)
This is ironic, because criticism of his association with the commies (Ayers, Dohrn) doesn't exhibit McCarthyism. They're all lefties and they have similar views and have joined political forces against the evils of capitalism. They're all open about their politics and policies, though Obama prefers the term "progressive" rather than "liberal", so he is more timid either in belief or expression. Nobody ever claimed that an 8 year old Obama conspired with Ayers, only that these connections reveal political leanings, associations, etc. and that to hang with a domestic terrorist just because you have similar political leanings and interests is horrid (and dumb perhaps). Not only should a future president not be hanging with these folks, they shouldn't have their positions in academia, and shouldn't be launching or shaping political careers at all.
He's "guilty as sin and free as a bird", and reportedly totally unrepentant about resorting to violence. This makes perfect sense given that they see themselves as freedom fighters against the oppressive empire (don't they know its hegemony? how old school to still say empire ;) and they are still actively pursuing the same exact goals as back then, just through different means, arguably more intelligent and effective than violence. Like Wright, they believe that America is capable of most any great evil imaginable. They might react to 9/11 with sympathy (perhaps jealousy) for the perpetrators, and if they were religious, might even say that God backed it as a just attack.
We are the great satan, the capitalist beast, the evil empire, western hegemony, the monster, etc. Different groups have different names and different plans for us once we fall to their various attacks, don't they?
I don't share those views, however, nor do most other Americans... ...as far as I know.
BTW, Clinton's "obliterating Iran" comment was specific to their launching a nuclear attack. You should not leave that out in quoting her, unless you are just doing typical Obama dirty-tricks. However, it shows that she believes that a nuclear deterrent applies to Iran, as it did elsewhere. This is debatable.
Here's how one newspaper put it:
Clinton achieved a new level of severity on primary day when she candidly volunteered that, as president, she would annihilate Iran if it attacked Israel with a nuclear weapon.
Usually, presidential candidates brush off this kind of hypothetical question, but Clinton waded right in, telling ABC News: "Whatever state of development they might be in their nuclear weapons programme, in the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them."
All US politicians with national ambitions have to declare strong support for Israel, because there are large numbers of voters, campaign fundraisers and donors in this country who support Israel for a variety of reasons.
Still, its not every day you hear a prominent politician talk about destroying a country of 65 million people.
Predictably, the US media dropped the story after a few hours - in contrast with the endless repetitive coverage given to Obama's alleged "gaffes" and verbal slip-ups.
He called voters bitter; she called for obliteration.
That is an interesting perspective. Also, there's Michael Scheuer's perspective on all of this, which would be worth mentioning, though in a different context.
Still, its not every day you hear a prominent politician talk about destroying a country of 65 million people.
Yet it is every day that you hear prominent politicians talk about destroying a country of 7 million.
The interpretation that this was a "play" on her part to make her Israel support unequivocal is reasonable. One can expect that, and that Clinton be unashamed at political posturing. It can also be taken as a "play" against Obama's purported policy of embracing Ahmadenijad in direct talks (rather than the traditional indirect means), of reported TUCC publications that have been sympathetic to Hamas, of desiring to withdraw from Iraq and turn it over to aQI, Qods, Special Groups, et. al., of indirect links of Wright/Farrakhan/Gaddafi meeting, of Hamas "endorsement" of Obama, of ignoring Saddam's sponsorship of suicide bombers in Israel and other links, of TUCC's honoring of Farrakhan, ... In short, attempting to garner the Israel and Israel sympathetic vote. One can expect her to make this play. Or if authentic, to draw distinction between her and Obama in some way.
Picking two scenarios out of a huge chaotic mess and tracking their coverage is not necessarily valid (comparing "bitter" to "obliteration" discussion). I'm still not convinced of the gaff aspect of Clinton's statement. In precisely what way is it a gaff? I need more clarification on that.
Also, Clinton's character isn't under much scrutiny because she is already in low standing -- her negatives are thru the roof and have been for a very long time. Obama's character is in focus because he is a relatively new guy on the scene, and he is ostensibly claiming to be aloof to the entire process.
If I spent all day selling that I am a political saint, I might risk feeding a movement to question that assertion. I might find that my aloof superior attitude, the core of my campaign, happens to give people the mistaken impression that I am aloof and superior! And when I say that those who have developed this attitude about me, are just being manipulated to such action, since they're weak intellects and prone to such manipulation and don't see what's really happening... well, I may come off a wee bit condescending. The more I deny my own role in this, the more I feed the entire issue. I would be wiser to disarm the issue, than to feed it, lest I ultimately prove people right rather than mistaken.
So comparing "bitter" to "obliteration" is problematic. Yet, both are just cases of each politician being themselves. Clinton being a shameless and blatantly political gamester, and Obama being a condescending prick. Clinton is no surprise and is short lived. Obama contradicts his claims of being the infallible good guy, hence propagating scrutiny. Though it's consistent with his questioning of other peoples patriotism, claiming divine knowledge of their "real" motives, and similar rude assertions.
But returning to the specific statements. To claim that it is odd to speak of retaliatory obliteration is to miss the point that Israel faces ongoing threats of obliteration, does it not? This is such a given, such an embedded notion in our heads, that we just figure its normal. We feign shock that Clinton dare offer retaliation, yet we have no shock that many would gladly obliterate Israel.
BTW, if Obama wanted to get into deep discussion of issues, he could elaborate on the whether or not Clinton's proposed MAD (mutual assured destruction -- though not exactly that, since it involves us acting in proxy for Israel), is actually effective as a deterrent. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't. Obama could claim that to offer such firm defense of Israel, is actually an aggravating factor to the peace process. He could claim that "we are creating terrorists" with such policies. He could claim that direct talks with Ahmadenijad would help more than nuclear threats (of retaliation). He could venture into the issue of preventative attack. He could mention the preventative attack on Iraq that destroyed their nuclear facilities. He could mention similar in Syria. He could ponder similar in Iran. But how would this discussion play out for him politically? There is so much deep discussion that could be going on... Where is it?
Thanks for the detailed response, sirmonkey.
I don't agree with all of it. Contrary to what you have written, there are no prominent politicians that talk about the destruction of Israel, despite what we Americans are led to believe. While I agree that we in America believe Israel faces the threat of obliteration, that is simply a false belief. Isreal is armed to the teeth with NUCLEAR WEAPONS and our throwing a nuclear umbrella over her is plain dumb.
I agree with your interpretation of Clinton's remarks that "this was a "play" on her part to make her Israel support unequivocal." But what a terrible thing to play with! AND she is doing it on the world stage, which only increases Muslim fear and even hatred of the USA.
Finally, why the longish italicized paragraph that pretends to be the voice of Obama?
For those who are interested, Senator Obama disclosed on April 10, 2008, in his famous "small town America and small town Americans ..." that he also was better prepared in the area of foreign policy, because he'd lived in Indonesia, traveled to Kenya (once or twice is now no longer clear), and visited Pakistan, where he was in Jacobabad, under the chaperone of one Mian Muhammadian Soomro. He named several Pakistani friends who went with him; a Pakistani he implied was an "illegal" i.e., he'd overstayed his welcome ... ; also visited Karachi and Hyderabad (India he said). There is also a Hyderabad, Pakistan.
Google:
"Obama discloses Pakistan visit."
"Obama and Muhammadian Soomro."
"Muhammadian Soomro and General Pervez Musharraf."
"Muhammadian Soomro and PML (Q) Party."
"Inter-Services Intelligence Agency, Pakistan."
"Stanley Ann Dunham Obama Soetero and USAID."
" Same, and Ford Foundation."
"USAID as C.I.A. Front Company."
"Ford Foundation as C.I.A. Front Company."
"Women's Working Bank."
"Barack Obama as Marxist."
"Stanley Ann Dunham as 'fellow traveler.'"
"Obama donates to Fr. Pfleger."
And look at the associations Obama has kept. One can learn a lot about one's associates.
The aura of McCarthyism is the general indictment of people who were claimed to have been communists. It was unfair. It was also very thickly tarred. There were many Americans who were communists in the 20s and 30s, who were simply communists. They were also seen as allies, in WW II, until the truth began to emerge about their activities against their allies (i.e., the Russian's allies -- i.e. the U.S., the U.K., France, et al).
The sins of McCarthy were most disgusting in the way it became a stain to have been a communist.
This was because J. Edgar Hoover, deviate that he was, made communists out to be like witches.
At the same time, it is possible that Hoover knew, but very few others did, that the VENONA Project was under way, even then. VENONA, which was only declassified in the early 1990s, was an Army Security Agency>> National Security Agency coup, wherein may Soviet KGB and GRU coded transmissions were DE-coded over a lengthy period of time.
However, progress was so terrific in the late 1940s, and early 1950s, that the FBI was able to begin identifying a number of C.P.U.S.A. (Communist Party, USA) members WERE ALSO active spies for the Soviet Union. This isn't myth. If J. Edgar ever disclosed the truth to McCarthy (which I doubt), McCarthy was sworn to only the grosser number Hoover gave him of commies in the barn. McCarthy doubtless never knew all the details. Hell, Truman and Eisenhower probably didn't know about VENONA, nor did Kenedy or LBJ, maybe not even Nixon, Carter, or Reagan.
The ULTRA secrecy of code breaks is off the chart in what we will do to protect the leak.
Because of the ULTRA breaks against the Germans, and the Purple code breaks against the Japanese, we allowed Jews to be killed by Einsatzgruppen in Poland and Russia, and allowed Japanese ships carrying American POWs to be sunk by our subs. This is pretty pathetic. But, VENONA has shown that there was a very significant kernel of truth in how badly penetrated CPUSA was by actual spies for the Soviet Union.
Obama's associations bear sensible review.
Go through the work suggested above. I would suggest that you will learn that virtually no one has ever heard about a Pakistan trip by Obama until April. I haven't yet found one, although one article suggested a Pakistan Times broke the story. My guess is, the peekers into Obama's State Department files were looking for the trip; State Department Security tipped off Obama; Obama disclosed before it leaked.
Prime Minister (government in transition between Benazir Bhutto's assassination and the new government's election) Mian Mohammadian Soomro has so far NOT DISCLOSED a word about the Pakistan trip.
Wonder why not?
Soomro is allegedly a confidante of Musharraf. The same Musharraf who wanted Soomro appointed. The same Soomro who was seen as a lakey of Musharraf. And, the same Musharraf who Obama has derided. But why, pray tell, would Soomro not discuss the Pakistan trip Obama made in 1981?
I really do not know about this, but I've looked. Naysayers should do the same homework. perhaps come forth with new info. The Pakistani bloggers make clear that Pakistan in 1981 was not your typical tourist trap. One suggested that young men went to Pakistan to: get more specific muslim education;
to join the mujahadeen being trained and paid for by Pakistani Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), in cooperation with the United States; Saudi Arabia; Egypt; probably under the surveillance of Indian intelligence operatives; in Pakistan and Afghanistan, to fight against the Soviets; or, to buy dope. Heroin or hash, coming out of Afghanistan.
As someone who is constantly being presented as the kick ass winner, Obama has an obligation to now disclose whatever the trip was about.
In Richard Wolfe's NEWSWEEK article, "When Barry became Barack," there's no word of this trip. And yet, it's a very flattering and recent snapshot of the Barack Obama story. It says nada about Pakistan. And, it makes clear that when Obama made the trip to Kenya and Indonesia (to see Mum), he was a typical intelligent young man who was biracial; bireligious and areligious; biethnic in some ways; curious about where he should live and how he should live and as what he should live. In other words, a formative period. Out of that, according to the article, emerged African-American Christian Barack Obama.
Fine.
Why no details on Pakistan?
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